When an agency decides your case, what kind of process do you get?
Sometimes it’s a full trial-type hearing with witnesses, cross-examination, an independent decisionmaker, and a written opinion. Other times it’s a paper review and a short explanation.
In this episode, we map the adjudication spectrum under the Administrative Procedure Act (APA) — from “straight to your room” to a full family meeting.
What We Cover
- The difference between formal and informal adjudication
- The “magic words” that trigger full procedural protections: “on the record after opportunity for agency hearing”
- Why most agency decisions — roughly 90% or more — are informal
- What formal adjudication actually includes:
- Notice
- Right to counsel
- Presentation of evidence
- Cross-examination
- Decision based exclusively on the record
- Administrative Law Judge (ALJ)
- Why the APA says almost nothing about informal adjudication
- The “black hole” of informal process
- How due process, organic statutes, and agency regulations fill the gap
- Why courts generally cannot impose extra procedures beyond what the APA requires (Vermont Yankee)
- The massive volume problem: millions of decisions, only about 2,000 ALJs
- The justice gap created by delay and procedural filtering
Key Cases
- United States v. Florida East Coast Railway A statute that says “hearing” is not enough. Without the magic words, you don’t get formal adjudication.
- Vermont Yankee Nuclear Power Corp. v. NRDC Courts cannot add procedural requirements beyond those required by statute.
Real-World Examples
- Passport applications
- Social Security disability determinations
- Immigration interviews
- Student loan discharge decisions
- Borrower defense claims
- Public Service Loan Forgiveness
The same APA framework governs all of them.
Why This Matters
Your rights depend on where you fall on the spectrum — and you don’t get to choose.
Formal hearings are expensive and slow. Informal decisions are fast but thin. The system is built around tradeoffs: speed versus accuracy, efficiency versus fairness.
For many people, the informal stage filters out their claim before they ever reach a hearing. The structure of the system — not just the merits of the case — often determines the outcome.
00:00:14 --> 00:00:17 Hello, and welcome to Administrative Remedies,
00:00:17 --> 00:00:19 because you can't fix what you don't understand.
00:00:19 --> 00:00:21 Brought to you in part by the University of Tulsa
00:00:21 --> 00:00:24 College of Law. I'm Gwendolyn Savitz, an associate
00:00:24 --> 00:00:26 professor here at TU and the associate dean of
00:00:26 --> 00:00:28 research and intellectual life. And I'm Mark
00:00:28 --> 00:00:31 Rourke. I'm the dean of the College of Law. We'll
00:00:31 --> 00:00:33 be breaking down complex doctrines with real
00:00:33 --> 00:00:35 -life analogies and examples to demystify the
00:00:35 --> 00:00:37 world of administrative law for everyone trying
00:00:37 --> 00:00:39 to understand how government actually works.
00:00:40 --> 00:00:41 Agencies are the main way the federal government
00:00:41 --> 00:00:44 gets things done. It's not through Congress for
00:00:44 --> 00:00:46 reasons we'll be addressing over the course of
00:00:46 --> 00:00:50 this series. Today we are talking about the adjudication
00:00:50 --> 00:00:53 spectrum. So Mark, let's think back to when you
00:00:53 --> 00:00:55 were a kid. Did you ever get in trouble at home?
00:00:55 --> 00:00:58 Never. I was perfect, an angel. I was a delight
00:00:58 --> 00:01:02 to my parents. Obviously, but let's imagine some
00:01:02 --> 00:01:05 sort of alternative reality where you weren't.
00:01:05 --> 00:01:08 So let's say you hit your brother. Hypothetically.
00:01:09 --> 00:01:11 Yes, hypothetically, because obviously this never
00:01:11 --> 00:01:14 happened in your life. But in this alternative
00:01:14 --> 00:01:17 reality, if your parents saw it happen, like
00:01:17 --> 00:01:20 actually saw you punch him, what would have happened
00:01:20 --> 00:01:23 next? Straight to my room. No discussion. They
00:01:23 --> 00:01:26 saw it. Case closed. All right. So what if they
00:01:26 --> 00:01:28 don't see anything, but your brother went running
00:01:28 --> 00:01:31 to them crying, saying that you'd hit him. But
00:01:31 --> 00:01:34 again, they didn't actually see anything. Well,
00:01:34 --> 00:01:36 I get to defend myself. He started it. He took
00:01:36 --> 00:01:39 my toy. I didn't even hit him that hard. Both
00:01:39 --> 00:01:43 sides get hurt mostly. Yeah, it depends on the
00:01:43 --> 00:01:46 kids. But theoretically, you'd have some chance
00:01:46 --> 00:01:49 to defend yourself. But let's say we're talking
00:01:49 --> 00:01:52 about something even more serious. So we're not
00:01:52 --> 00:01:55 just hitting your brother. Your parents have
00:01:55 --> 00:01:57 found, say, a super expensive clock that's been
00:01:57 --> 00:02:00 destroyed. And your brother is blaming you and
00:02:00 --> 00:02:03 you're swearing you didn't do it. Full family
00:02:03 --> 00:02:05 meeting. Everyone sits down. Each kid presents
00:02:05 --> 00:02:08 their case. Parents ask questions. Whole production.
00:02:08 --> 00:02:11 All right. So that is functionally the entire
00:02:11 --> 00:02:14 spectrum of administrative adjudication. Wait,
00:02:14 --> 00:02:16 really? In the first scenario, the parents saw
00:02:16 --> 00:02:18 it straight to your room. That's summary action.
00:02:19 --> 00:02:23 There is essentially no process happening. Scenario
00:02:23 --> 00:02:26 two, both sides get heard informally. That's
00:02:26 --> 00:02:29 informal adjudication. Yeah, as we'll see, informal
00:02:29 --> 00:02:33 adjudication is a very, very wide spectrum. And
00:02:33 --> 00:02:35 in scenario three, that full family meeting,
00:02:35 --> 00:02:38 that's formal adjudication. Same household, same
00:02:38 --> 00:02:40 parents, completely different procedures depending
00:02:40 --> 00:02:43 on what's at stake. Yes, and what they already
00:02:43 --> 00:02:45 know. What they already know also matters. Okay,
00:02:46 --> 00:02:49 so agencies work the same way then? Yes, to an
00:02:49 --> 00:02:53 extent. That's what we'll be talking about. So
00:02:53 --> 00:02:55 how do you know which type of adjudication you're
00:02:55 --> 00:02:58 getting? Is there a test? There is. This is one
00:02:58 --> 00:03:00 of those super easy magic word tests. It all
00:03:00 --> 00:03:03 comes down to whether specific words appear in
00:03:03 --> 00:03:07 the statute. That seems very formalistic. Oh,
00:03:07 --> 00:03:10 yeah, it is. So here, this is part of the APA
00:03:10 --> 00:03:13 that creates the trigger for formal adjudication.
00:03:14 --> 00:03:16 This section applies according to the provisions
00:03:16 --> 00:03:19 thereof in every case of adjudication required
00:03:19 --> 00:03:23 by statute to be determined on the record after
00:03:23 --> 00:03:25 opportunity for an agency hearing. All right.
00:03:25 --> 00:03:27 On the record after the opportunity for an agency
00:03:27 --> 00:03:30 hearing, especially that on the record part,
00:03:30 --> 00:03:33 that's the magic words. Abracadabra, magic words
00:03:33 --> 00:03:36 like a spell. Here we go. Yes. And then you've
00:03:36 --> 00:03:39 got formal adjudication. If the statute was created
00:03:39 --> 00:03:43 or if the statute. At issue uses that phrase
00:03:43 --> 00:03:46 or something functionally identical. Again, that
00:03:46 --> 00:03:48 on the record part, you have formal adjudication
00:03:48 --> 00:03:51 with all of its protections. And it has a lot
00:03:51 --> 00:03:53 of protections. And if the statute doesn't say
00:03:53 --> 00:03:57 that. Then you are instead in the vast murky
00:03:57 --> 00:03:59 world of informal adjudication, which could mean
00:03:59 --> 00:04:02 almost anything. Wait. So what if the statute
00:04:02 --> 00:04:06 just says hearing not on the record? Just here.
00:04:07 --> 00:04:09 That is an excellent question, and one that the
00:04:09 --> 00:04:12 Supreme Court addressed. That's how we get to
00:04:12 --> 00:04:15 this place. In the United States v. Florida East
00:04:15 --> 00:04:18 Coast Railroad. Okay, so let me guess. Hearing
00:04:18 --> 00:04:22 alone wasn't enough. It wasn't. The Interstate
00:04:22 --> 00:04:24 Commerce Commission was setting railroad freight
00:04:24 --> 00:04:26 rates, and the statute of issues said hearing,
00:04:27 --> 00:04:30 but it didn't say on the record. The railroads
00:04:30 --> 00:04:33 wanted a full formal adjudication. Did they get
00:04:33 --> 00:04:36 it? They did not. The court said hearing alone
00:04:36 --> 00:04:38 isn't going to be enough to trigger formal procedures.
00:04:38 --> 00:04:42 You need the full magic words on the record after
00:04:42 --> 00:04:44 opportunity for hearing or something clearly
00:04:44 --> 00:04:47 equivalent. So choo -choo, the Congress has to
00:04:47 --> 00:04:51 be really explicit. Super explicit. That seems
00:04:51 --> 00:04:54 backwards, honestly. Shouldn't the default be
00:04:54 --> 00:04:56 more protection, not less? It might seem that
00:04:56 --> 00:05:00 way. And when Congress was writing the APA in
00:05:00 --> 00:05:04 1946, or maybe they were writing it in 45, they
00:05:04 --> 00:05:06 probably assumed that most adjudication would
00:05:06 --> 00:05:08 be formal, just like they assumed most rulemaking
00:05:08 --> 00:05:10 would be formal. They probably imagined agencies
00:05:10 --> 00:05:13 holding trial -like hearings as a matter of course.
00:05:13 --> 00:05:15 But that's not what happened. It was not even
00:05:15 --> 00:05:18 close. Agencies quickly figured out that if Congress
00:05:18 --> 00:05:21 didn't use the magic words, they didn't need
00:05:21 --> 00:05:23 to provide these formal hearings. So they lobbied
00:05:23 --> 00:05:26 for statutes without the words. They gained the
00:05:26 --> 00:05:29 system. You could put it that way. So today,
00:05:29 --> 00:05:33 formal adjudication is the exception. The vast
00:05:33 --> 00:05:35 majority of agency adjudications are informal.
00:05:35 --> 00:05:41 Some estimates are around 90%. Although I would
00:05:41 --> 00:05:43 guess it's higher than that. That's actually
00:05:43 --> 00:05:46 a lot of cases without full procedural protections.
00:05:47 --> 00:05:50 Then let's talk about what you get if you do
00:05:50 --> 00:05:53 trigger formal adjudication. What are the procedures?
00:05:53 --> 00:05:56 So there are two sections of the APA, sections
00:05:56 --> 00:06:00 556 and 557, that deal specifically with these
00:06:00 --> 00:06:03 formal procedures. It is designed to look like
00:06:03 --> 00:06:06 a trial. Like a real courtroom trial. Pretty
00:06:06 --> 00:06:10 close. So here is 556D. This is about your right
00:06:10 --> 00:06:12 to present evidence. A party entitled to present
00:06:12 --> 00:06:15 his evidence or defense by oral or documentary
00:06:15 --> 00:06:18 evidence to submit rebuttal evidence and to conduct
00:06:18 --> 00:06:21 such cross -examination as may be required for
00:06:21 --> 00:06:26 a full and true disclosure of the facts. Cross
00:06:26 --> 00:06:29 -examination, that's huge. Cross -examination
00:06:29 --> 00:06:33 is a big deal in administrative stuff. You get
00:06:33 --> 00:06:35 to present your case. You get to call witnesses.
00:06:35 --> 00:06:38 You get to submit documents. And you also get
00:06:38 --> 00:06:40 to cross -examine everything that's being used
00:06:40 --> 00:06:43 against you. Just like in court. Very much like
00:06:43 --> 00:06:46 in court. So here's the next section. This is
00:06:46 --> 00:06:49 about the record of the hearing. The transcript
00:06:49 --> 00:06:52 of testimony exhibits together with all the papers
00:06:52 --> 00:06:54 and requests filed in the proceeding constitutes
00:06:54 --> 00:06:57 the exclusive record for decision. Exclusive
00:06:57 --> 00:07:00 record so the agency can't just make stuff up
00:07:00 --> 00:07:03 or rely on secret evidence. Right. The decision
00:07:03 --> 00:07:05 has to be based on everything that was presented
00:07:05 --> 00:07:09 at the hearing, which means that everything needed
00:07:09 --> 00:07:11 to be presented. And so you needed to see it
00:07:11 --> 00:07:14 and decide whether you needed to contest it.
00:07:14 --> 00:07:18 So, yeah, if there's information that you didn't
00:07:18 --> 00:07:20 get to see or you didn't get to rebut, it can't
00:07:20 --> 00:07:22 be used against you. So who actually conducts
00:07:22 --> 00:07:25 these hearings? Some random bureaucrat? These
00:07:25 --> 00:07:29 are done by Administrative Law Judges, or ALJs.
00:07:29 --> 00:07:31 They're special officers with independent protections.
00:07:32 --> 00:07:36 Independence from whom? From the agency. They
00:07:36 --> 00:07:38 have significant protections that are designed
00:07:38 --> 00:07:41 to make them function independently. They can't
00:07:41 --> 00:07:43 be easily removed. They're not supposed to be
00:07:43 --> 00:07:45 subject to agency pressure on their decisions.
00:07:45 --> 00:07:48 But exactly how much protection they'll really
00:07:48 --> 00:07:51 have is a bit of a live controversy that we'll
00:07:51 --> 00:07:53 get into in the next episode. Wait, there's a
00:07:53 --> 00:07:56 controversy? Oh, there is, yes. So there's been
00:07:56 --> 00:07:58 litigation about whether these ALJ protections
00:07:58 --> 00:08:02 are constitutional. But for now, just know that
00:08:02 --> 00:08:05 the formal system is designed to provide independence,
00:08:05 --> 00:08:08 an independent decider, and procedural rigor.
00:08:08 --> 00:08:12 Okay, so let's add all this up. In a formal adjudication,
00:08:12 --> 00:08:15 you get notice of what you're charged with, right
00:08:15 --> 00:08:17 to an attorney, right to present evidence, right
00:08:17 --> 00:08:19 to call witnesses, right to cross -examination,
00:08:19 --> 00:08:22 an independent judge, decision based only on
00:08:22 --> 00:08:24 the record, and a written decision explaining
00:08:24 --> 00:08:27 why. Yes, and you have the right to appeal the
00:08:27 --> 00:08:30 ALJ's decision to the agency heads and then to
00:08:30 --> 00:08:33 court. Okay, that's very comprehensive. It is,
00:08:33 --> 00:08:36 and that also means it's very expensive, which
00:08:36 --> 00:08:39 is why agencies try to avoid it whenever they
00:08:39 --> 00:08:42 can. So when does formal adjudication actually
00:08:42 --> 00:08:47 happen? This could be used in SEC enforcement
00:08:47 --> 00:08:49 actions against brokers if it's not the kind
00:08:49 --> 00:08:51 of thing they need to take to a jury trial, or
00:08:51 --> 00:08:55 MLRB unfair labor practice cases, some Social
00:08:55 --> 00:08:58 Security disability appeals, FTC enforcement,
00:08:58 --> 00:09:01 cases where Congress specifically wants this
00:09:01 --> 00:09:03 kind of trial -type hearing protection. Okay,
00:09:03 --> 00:09:06 so formal adjudication has all these protections.
00:09:06 --> 00:09:09 What about informal adjudication? Yeah, now things
00:09:09 --> 00:09:13 are getting a little less specific. Okay, less
00:09:13 --> 00:09:17 specific. How? The APA is basically silent on
00:09:17 --> 00:09:21 informal adjudication. Silent? So there's nothing?
00:09:21 --> 00:09:26 There's almost nothing. 555E is really the only
00:09:26 --> 00:09:29 provision that speaks to this at all. You want
00:09:29 --> 00:09:31 to read the entirety of what the APA has to say
00:09:31 --> 00:09:55 about informal adjudication? Sure. That's it?
00:09:55 --> 00:09:57 A brief statement for the grounds of denial?
00:09:57 --> 00:10:00 Yeah, that's basically all the APA requires.
00:10:00 --> 00:10:03 If you apply for something and get denied, the
00:10:03 --> 00:10:05 agency has to tell you promptly, although promptly
00:10:05 --> 00:10:08 is also kind of used loosely, and it needs to
00:10:08 --> 00:10:11 give some sort of explanation. So no hearing.
00:10:11 --> 00:10:14 Not required by the APA. No right to present
00:10:14 --> 00:10:17 evidence. Not required by the APA. No cross -examination.
00:10:17 --> 00:10:21 Definitely not required. This seems like a massive
00:10:21 --> 00:10:24 gap in the statute. Yes. People sometimes call
00:10:24 --> 00:10:27 this like the black hole of informal adjudication.
00:10:27 --> 00:10:30 Wait, so you said almost all adjudications are
00:10:30 --> 00:10:34 informal. So 90 % of agency decisions are covered
00:10:34 --> 00:10:39 by almost nothing? As far as the APA is concerned,
00:10:39 --> 00:10:42 yes. Federal agencies make tens of millions of
00:10:42 --> 00:10:45 informal adjudications every year with one sentence
00:10:45 --> 00:10:49 of guidance. Tens of millions of decisions. And
00:10:49 --> 00:10:51 one sentence of guidance. Yes. This is why we
00:10:51 --> 00:10:55 have such a gap. Beyond that, agencies have a
00:10:55 --> 00:10:56 huge amount of discretion to design their own
00:10:56 --> 00:10:59 procedures. Some create elaborate hearing procedures
00:10:59 --> 00:11:03 and others don't. So what protections do people
00:11:03 --> 00:11:05 actually get? All right. Protections can come
00:11:05 --> 00:11:08 from places other than the APA. There can be
00:11:08 --> 00:11:11 the organic statute, the statute that creates
00:11:11 --> 00:11:13 that specific agency or the programs that require
00:11:13 --> 00:11:15 certain procedures. Even if it doesn't trigger
00:11:15 --> 00:11:18 full formal adjudication. Right. It might not
00:11:18 --> 00:11:21 say on the record, but it might say other things
00:11:21 --> 00:11:24 that provide additional protection. There could
00:11:24 --> 00:11:27 also be agency regulations. Again, a lot of agencies
00:11:27 --> 00:11:30 have voluntarily provided more than that APA
00:11:30 --> 00:11:33 bare minimum. Out of the pure goodness of their
00:11:33 --> 00:11:36 hearts. Out of their desire to make accurate
00:11:36 --> 00:11:39 decisions and to avoid lawsuits. And finally,
00:11:39 --> 00:11:42 the Constitution. Due process sets a minimum
00:11:42 --> 00:11:45 floor for the agencies, but we'll be circling
00:11:45 --> 00:11:47 back to that in another episode as well. Okay,
00:11:47 --> 00:11:52 so informal adjudication isn't one thing. It's
00:11:52 --> 00:11:55 a whole range of things. It is. It is an enormous
00:11:55 --> 00:11:58 spectrum. Okay, give me the extremes. So at one
00:11:58 --> 00:12:00 end of this, we can have informal adjudications
00:12:00 --> 00:12:03 that look almost exactly like a formal adjudication.
00:12:03 --> 00:12:06 The agency is providing a hearing. There's submission
00:12:06 --> 00:12:08 of evidence. There might even be something resembling
00:12:08 --> 00:12:11 crotch examination. So if it walks like a duck
00:12:11 --> 00:12:13 and it quacks like a duck. It's still not a duck
00:12:13 --> 00:12:16 because Congress didn't say on the record in
00:12:16 --> 00:12:18 the statute. These are the magic words again.
00:12:19 --> 00:12:23 Yes. And also these things that look like formal
00:12:23 --> 00:12:26 adjudications are often missing one of the required
00:12:26 --> 00:12:29 features. Maybe it's not being decided by an
00:12:29 --> 00:12:33 ALJ or something else. So then at the other end
00:12:33 --> 00:12:36 of the spectrum, there are things that barely
00:12:36 --> 00:12:39 look like adjudication at all. Like what? So
00:12:39 --> 00:12:42 applying for a passport. You fill out a form.
00:12:42 --> 00:12:45 A clerk checks your paperwork. Is your birth
00:12:45 --> 00:12:48 certificate valid? Are you a U .S. citizen? Is
00:12:48 --> 00:12:50 your photo the right size? Did you pay the right
00:12:50 --> 00:12:52 fee? I'm glad you said that. I need to renew
00:12:52 --> 00:12:54 my passport coming up. But that's adjudication,
00:12:54 --> 00:12:58 I guess. Yeah, it is. It's adjudication. This
00:12:58 --> 00:13:01 is bureaucratic processing as adjudication. But
00:13:01 --> 00:13:04 the agency here is making an individual determination
00:13:04 --> 00:13:07 about whether you qualify for a passport. That's
00:13:07 --> 00:13:10 adjudication under the APA definition. Remember.
00:13:10 --> 00:13:12 Things the agency is doing are either rulemaking
00:13:12 --> 00:13:15 or adjudication. This is the adjudication side.
00:13:15 --> 00:13:18 This is also why so many of the adjudications
00:13:18 --> 00:13:21 the agencies do are informal. So it's not the
00:13:21 --> 00:13:23 same as deciding whether someone violated securities
00:13:23 --> 00:13:26 law. Definitely not. But these are both adjudications
00:13:26 --> 00:13:31 under the APA. That's... Frankly, kind of absurd.
00:13:31 --> 00:13:34 The same category covers a passport application
00:13:34 --> 00:13:37 and an initial Social Security disability determination
00:13:37 --> 00:13:43 and a FOIA request and a visa denial. Yes, all
00:13:43 --> 00:13:45 of them. The procedures can be wildly different,
00:13:45 --> 00:13:48 but the APA treats them all the same, which is
00:13:48 --> 00:13:52 to say with almost no requirements. So let me
00:13:52 --> 00:13:54 try to map this spectrum. Awesome. Go for it.
00:13:54 --> 00:13:57 Okay, on one end, you have pure paper processing.
00:13:57 --> 00:14:00 Passport applications, license renewals, routine
00:14:00 --> 00:14:03 permit approvals, a bureaucrat reviews documents
00:14:03 --> 00:14:06 and checks boxes. Yes. Here we have stuff that
00:14:06 --> 00:14:09 is routine, standardized. There's minimal discretion
00:14:09 --> 00:14:12 involved. Pretty straightforward. And then moving
00:14:12 --> 00:14:15 up, you have initial benefit determinations.
00:14:15 --> 00:14:18 So security disability initial decisions. Someone's
00:14:18 --> 00:14:21 actually analyzing your situation, but still
00:14:21 --> 00:14:24 no hearing. Yeah. Now we're in a situation where
00:14:24 --> 00:14:26 we need to look a lot more at the specific facts
00:14:26 --> 00:14:29 to... Figure out how this decision should actually
00:14:29 --> 00:14:32 come out. Okay. Then one rung above that, informal
00:14:32 --> 00:14:35 interviews or conferences, immigration asylum,
00:14:35 --> 00:14:38 interviews, credible fear determinations. You
00:14:38 --> 00:14:41 get to talk to someone, but it's not a formal
00:14:41 --> 00:14:44 hearing. Right. So these are considered conversational,
00:14:44 --> 00:14:48 not adversarial. There aren't rules of evidence,
00:14:48 --> 00:14:50 but you can explain your situation and you can
00:14:50 --> 00:14:54 do it in your own words. And then you have informal
00:14:54 --> 00:14:57 hearings that look almost formal. And maybe you
00:14:57 --> 00:14:59 can present documents. Maybe there's an officer
00:14:59 --> 00:15:01 asking questions, but it's missing one or more
00:15:01 --> 00:15:04 elements that would make it truly formal. Yes.
00:15:04 --> 00:15:07 And this is where we're at the top of the informal
00:15:07 --> 00:15:10 adjudications. Procedures so close to formal,
00:15:10 --> 00:15:14 you can barely tell the difference. But this
00:15:14 --> 00:15:16 still hasn't been enough to actually trigger
00:15:16 --> 00:15:20 formal adjudication. Okay. So it's still informal.
00:15:20 --> 00:15:24 Yes. This is kind of a solid mental map. And
00:15:24 --> 00:15:27 the key point is that where you land on this
00:15:27 --> 00:15:30 spectrum determines what kind of protections
00:15:30 --> 00:15:34 you're getting and what Congress specified, if
00:15:34 --> 00:15:37 anything, the types of decisions. This is functionally
00:15:37 --> 00:15:40 administrative law. OK, so we have this massive
00:15:40 --> 00:15:44 spectrum. Why should ordinary people care? Because
00:15:44 --> 00:15:46 your rights depend totally on where you fall
00:15:46 --> 00:15:49 in the spectrum and you don't get to choose.
00:15:49 --> 00:15:51 Give me an example of that. All right. So Social
00:15:51 --> 00:15:53 Security disability. Conveniently, you mentioned
00:15:53 --> 00:15:56 that earlier. You apply for it and somebody reviews
00:15:56 --> 00:16:00 your medical records and denies you. OK, that's
00:16:00 --> 00:16:02 informal. It's just a paper determination. Yes.
00:16:03 --> 00:16:07 So then you appeal. You get reconsideration.
00:16:07 --> 00:16:10 This is still informal. This is another bureaucrat
00:16:10 --> 00:16:12 reviewing your file. But still no hearing. Yes.
00:16:12 --> 00:16:16 So now you've been denied twice. Now, if you
00:16:16 --> 00:16:19 appeal again, you can get a hearing before an
00:16:19 --> 00:16:22 administrative law judge. Now we're at that formal
00:16:22 --> 00:16:24 adjudication with all those procedures we talked
00:16:24 --> 00:16:26 about. So the same benefit, the same agency,
00:16:27 --> 00:16:29 but different procedures at different stages.
00:16:29 --> 00:16:32 Yes. I'm guessing most people give up before
00:16:32 --> 00:16:36 they even get to their ALJ hearing. Yes, that's
00:16:36 --> 00:16:38 exactly right. So that informal stage filters
00:16:38 --> 00:16:41 out a huge number of claims. Some of them wouldn't
00:16:41 --> 00:16:43 be legitimate, but certainly some would be. They
00:16:43 --> 00:16:45 just don't understand they need to keep pressing.
00:16:45 --> 00:16:48 So if you don't know you have a right to keep
00:16:48 --> 00:16:50 appealing or if you can't afford to wait months
00:16:50 --> 00:16:52 for a hearing. That means that you lose even
00:16:52 --> 00:16:55 if you would have won. So then the people who
00:16:55 --> 00:16:58 may get to formal adjudication are the persistent
00:16:58 --> 00:17:02 ones or the ones that have lawyers. Yes. There
00:17:02 --> 00:17:04 is a real concern here that this type of informal
00:17:04 --> 00:17:07 adjudication system is going to systematically
00:17:07 --> 00:17:10 disadvantage people who can't navigate this bureaucracy.
00:17:10 --> 00:17:13 And that will be people who are poor, who are
00:17:13 --> 00:17:15 less educated, who don't speak English well,
00:17:15 --> 00:17:17 a lot of the same people that these programs
00:17:17 --> 00:17:20 are designed to help. Can courts do anything
00:17:20 --> 00:17:23 about this? I mean, if informal adjudication
00:17:23 --> 00:17:26 is unfair, can a court just simply require more
00:17:26 --> 00:17:29 procedures? Generally, no. There was a case called
00:17:29 --> 00:17:32 Vermont Yankee that settled this. What did Vermont
00:17:32 --> 00:17:36 Yankee say? It's about nuclear power. But what
00:17:36 --> 00:17:39 really mattered is that courts had been trying
00:17:39 --> 00:17:41 to impose increasing requirements beyond what
00:17:41 --> 00:17:46 the minimum was. So they said that agencies have
00:17:46 --> 00:17:48 discretion to choose their procedures within
00:17:48 --> 00:17:51 constitutional limits. Judges can't try and add
00:17:51 --> 00:17:54 additional procedures onto what the APA requires.
00:17:54 --> 00:17:57 So even if the judges think the procedures are
00:17:57 --> 00:17:59 inadequate... Yes, even then. If the agency wants
00:17:59 --> 00:18:01 to decide a case with minimal process, and the
00:18:01 --> 00:18:04 APA doesn't require more, and the statute for
00:18:04 --> 00:18:06 the agency doesn't require more, courts can't
00:18:06 --> 00:18:09 second -guess that choice. Okay, I need to ask
00:18:09 --> 00:18:12 an obvious question here. Why not just make everything
00:18:12 --> 00:18:14 formal? Give everyone a trial -type hearing.
00:18:15 --> 00:18:18 All right, so a couple reasons here, and the
00:18:18 --> 00:18:20 first one probably isn't what you'd expect. Okay,
00:18:20 --> 00:18:23 lay it on me. So that passport that you really
00:18:23 --> 00:18:26 need to apply for, when you apply for it, what
00:18:26 --> 00:18:29 do you want? I want my passport, quickly. Do
00:18:29 --> 00:18:33 you want to be told that you can appear before
00:18:33 --> 00:18:36 a court on a certain day and hire a lawyer to
00:18:36 --> 00:18:38 present your birth certificate and potentially
00:18:38 --> 00:18:40 be cross -examined by somebody who's questioning
00:18:40 --> 00:18:43 the dimensions of your photo? Well, no, that
00:18:43 --> 00:18:45 would be insane. I just want them to approve
00:18:45 --> 00:18:48 me and send my passport and go to Spain. Right.
00:18:49 --> 00:18:51 So most of the time... In these types of cases,
00:18:52 --> 00:18:54 agencies are saying yes. They're granting the
00:18:54 --> 00:18:56 benefits. They're approving applications. They're
00:18:56 --> 00:18:59 issuing licenses. A lot of this work is helping
00:18:59 --> 00:19:02 people get what they're entitled to expeditiously.
00:19:02 --> 00:19:05 So formal procedures would actually make things
00:19:05 --> 00:19:08 worse for most people. Much worse. You'd be waiting
00:19:08 --> 00:19:11 months, if not years, instead of weeks. You'd
00:19:11 --> 00:19:13 have to take time off to attend a hearing just
00:19:13 --> 00:19:15 to prove something that wasn't even in dispute
00:19:15 --> 00:19:18 to begin with. Okay, but what about when they
00:19:18 --> 00:19:21 say no, when someone gets denied? That's when
00:19:21 --> 00:19:24 more process starts to make more sense. And like
00:19:24 --> 00:19:26 with Social Security, that's how these systems
00:19:26 --> 00:19:30 are often designed. If there's an easy approval,
00:19:30 --> 00:19:33 it's going to be quick and informal. But if that
00:19:33 --> 00:19:35 initial decision is denied, then we're going
00:19:35 --> 00:19:39 to get increasing procedural protections. Okay,
00:19:39 --> 00:19:42 so like Social Security disability, initial denial,
00:19:42 --> 00:19:45 then you can appeal to get a real hearing. Yes.
00:19:45 --> 00:19:48 And that real hearing, the formal hearing, is
00:19:48 --> 00:19:50 reserved for cases where there's actually a dispute
00:19:50 --> 00:19:53 that needs to be resolved. So the informal adjudication
00:19:53 --> 00:19:56 isn't just a cost -cutting measure. It's sometimes
00:19:56 --> 00:19:59 what people actually want. Yes. When it's working
00:19:59 --> 00:20:03 right, it is. It's a quick, accurate decision
00:20:03 --> 00:20:06 on routine matters. So we're saving the elaborate
00:20:06 --> 00:20:08 process for cases that need it. But I'm guessing
00:20:08 --> 00:20:11 there is a but somewhere in here. Yeah, there
00:20:11 --> 00:20:15 is. So that but is volume. Even if you're limiting
00:20:15 --> 00:20:18 formal processes to denials and disputes, the
00:20:18 --> 00:20:20 numbers are still staggering. That cost is another
00:20:20 --> 00:20:23 reason we don't want everything to be a formal
00:20:23 --> 00:20:27 hearing. How staggering? So Social Security alone
00:20:27 --> 00:20:29 has millions of disability claims every year.
00:20:29 --> 00:20:32 A significant percentage of them are denied at
00:20:32 --> 00:20:34 the first stage. Hundreds of thousands of people
00:20:34 --> 00:20:37 who might want to hear it. And how many ALJs
00:20:37 --> 00:20:40 are there to hear these? There are only about
00:20:40 --> 00:20:43 2 in the entire federal government for all
00:20:43 --> 00:20:46 agencies, for all formal adjudications. 2
00:20:46 --> 00:20:50 judges for millions of cases. Yes. And each formal
00:20:50 --> 00:20:53 hearing could take hours, if not days. It will
00:20:53 --> 00:20:56 require attorneys presenting cases, transcripts,
00:20:56 --> 00:20:59 written decisions with detailed findings. This
00:20:59 --> 00:21:01 is not something that's scalable. Okay. So even
00:21:01 --> 00:21:04 if you only reserve... formal adjudication for
00:21:04 --> 00:21:07 denials, you still can't give everyone who wants
00:21:07 --> 00:21:10 one a hearing. Right. This is why we get these
00:21:10 --> 00:21:12 terrible backlogs. Right now, Social Security
00:21:12 --> 00:21:15 disability appeals can take over a year to get
00:21:15 --> 00:21:18 to a hearing. Immigration backlogs are even worse.
00:21:19 --> 00:21:21 They're measured in years. You can sometimes
00:21:21 --> 00:21:23 wait four or five years to get your day in court.
00:21:23 --> 00:21:26 So the tradeoff is quick decisions for most people,
00:21:26 --> 00:21:29 but the ones who really need more process might
00:21:29 --> 00:21:32 not get it in time. or might give up before they
00:21:32 --> 00:21:34 would get it. That informal stage filters out
00:21:34 --> 00:21:37 a huge number of claims, some that shouldn't
00:21:37 --> 00:21:39 have been denied in the first place. People with
00:21:39 --> 00:21:42 strong cases, though, might lose because they
00:21:42 --> 00:21:45 couldn't wait two years for a real hearing. Yes,
00:21:45 --> 00:21:48 this is really a justice gap. The difference
00:21:48 --> 00:21:50 between these procedures that are available and
00:21:50 --> 00:21:53 the procedures that would be needed for... accurate,
00:21:53 --> 00:21:56 speedy, fair determinations. Okay, so back to
00:21:56 --> 00:21:58 the parent's analogy. Most of the time, quick
00:21:58 --> 00:22:01 decisions are fine. Riley got the snack he asked
00:22:01 --> 00:22:04 for. No hearing needed. Yes, and when the quick
00:22:04 --> 00:22:07 decision is wrong, there's no practical way to
00:22:07 --> 00:22:09 get it reconsidered. And that's when informal
00:22:09 --> 00:22:13 adjudication fails people. Yes, that is one of
00:22:13 --> 00:22:16 the many tensions in administrative law. We have
00:22:16 --> 00:22:19 efficiency versus accuracy, speed versus fairness.
00:22:19 --> 00:22:21 People want their passport quickly, but somebody
00:22:21 --> 00:22:24 whose passport was denied, they're going to want
00:22:24 --> 00:22:26 something more. And we can see this in different
00:22:26 --> 00:22:29 areas, too, like with student loan discharges.
00:22:29 --> 00:22:31 Applying for a student loan discharge isn't adjudication.
00:22:31 --> 00:22:34 You're asking the Department of Education to
00:22:34 --> 00:22:36 make an individual determination about whether
00:22:36 --> 00:22:38 you qualify for the discharge. It's definitely
00:22:38 --> 00:22:41 not a formal adjudication. There's no hearing.
00:22:41 --> 00:22:44 There's no ALJ. It's just a paper review. And
00:22:44 --> 00:22:46 millions of people went through that process
00:22:46 --> 00:22:48 with the Biden Student Loan Forgiveness Program.
00:22:49 --> 00:22:51 Yes. Every single one of these was an informal
00:22:51 --> 00:22:54 adjudication. Every application. But that was
00:22:54 --> 00:22:57 relatively straightforward, right? Check if you
00:22:57 --> 00:23:00 qualify, approve, or deny. There were also instances
00:23:00 --> 00:23:02 where the stakes were higher and the procedures
00:23:02 --> 00:23:05 were still pretty minimal. All right. I'm waiting.
00:23:05 --> 00:23:11 Yes. borrower defense claims. So these are claims
00:23:11 --> 00:23:13 that the school defrauded you, like they lied
00:23:13 --> 00:23:16 about the job placement rates or their accreditation
00:23:16 --> 00:23:19 status or the value of your degree. If you can
00:23:19 --> 00:23:21 make this claim successfully and your claim is
00:23:21 --> 00:23:23 approved, your loans will get discharged. Like
00:23:23 --> 00:23:26 for those for -profit college scandals. Yes,
00:23:26 --> 00:23:30 exactly. So Corinthian College, ITT Tech, hundreds
00:23:30 --> 00:23:32 of thousands of students were defrauded, and
00:23:32 --> 00:23:34 a lot of them filed borrower defense claims.
00:23:35 --> 00:23:37 And the procedures for deciding those claims.
00:23:37 --> 00:23:40 So for a while, the Department of Education had
00:23:40 --> 00:23:43 a massive, massive backlog. At one point, there
00:23:43 --> 00:23:47 were over 200 claims pending. No hearings,
00:23:47 --> 00:23:49 no opportunity to present your case in person.
00:23:49 --> 00:23:52 Just submit your documentation and wait. So how
00:23:52 --> 00:23:55 long would you wait? Years. Some people were
00:23:55 --> 00:23:57 waiting three, four or five years with no decisions.
00:23:58 --> 00:24:01 And the department also sometimes. process them
00:24:01 --> 00:24:03 in batches. They would decide like everybody
00:24:03 --> 00:24:06 related to ITT tech. All of those claims would
00:24:06 --> 00:24:09 be approved. So batch processing, individual
00:24:09 --> 00:24:13 circumstances. probably are going to get lost.
00:24:13 --> 00:24:15 They certainly could. You're trying to tell the
00:24:15 --> 00:24:17 government, this school lied to me specifically.
00:24:18 --> 00:24:20 Here's my evidence. And it gets lumped in with
00:24:20 --> 00:24:23 thousands of others. All governed by that one
00:24:23 --> 00:24:26 APA sentence about informal adjudication. Yes.
00:24:26 --> 00:24:29 Tens of thousands of dollars in debt, years of
00:24:29 --> 00:24:33 waiting for what is at best a paper review. All
00:24:33 --> 00:24:35 right. You said two examples. Okay. So the other
00:24:35 --> 00:24:38 one, public loan service forgiveness. This was,
00:24:39 --> 00:24:40 you've worked in public service for 10 years,
00:24:41 --> 00:24:44 like teachers and nurses. You've made 120 qualifying
00:24:44 --> 00:24:47 monthly payments. At that point, your remaining
00:24:47 --> 00:24:50 balance was supposed to be forgiven. That sounds
00:24:50 --> 00:24:52 like a wonderful program. When it works, it is.
00:24:52 --> 00:24:55 So when that first cohort of borrowers became
00:24:55 --> 00:24:59 eligible in 2017, the denial rate was 99%. 99
00:24:59 --> 00:25:03 %? These were people who'd been doing everything
00:25:03 --> 00:25:05 they thought they needed to do for 10 years.
00:25:05 --> 00:25:07 But the government said that they had done the
00:25:07 --> 00:25:10 wrong payment plan or this was the wrong loan
00:25:10 --> 00:25:13 type. There were paperwork issues. There were
00:25:13 --> 00:25:16 technicalities. And the procedures for challenging
00:25:16 --> 00:25:19 a denial? They were really minimal. There was
00:25:19 --> 00:25:21 no hearing. You could request reconsideration
00:25:21 --> 00:25:24 and you could submit more paperwork and wait
00:25:24 --> 00:25:27 additional months. But there wasn't any opportunity
00:25:27 --> 00:25:29 to sit down with someone and say, look, I've
00:25:29 --> 00:25:31 been a public school teacher for a decade. Here's
00:25:31 --> 00:25:34 my evidence. Let me explain why I should qualify.
00:25:34 --> 00:25:37 So the stakes are enormous. We're talking about
00:25:37 --> 00:25:41 people who might owe $100 or more. Yeah.
00:25:41 --> 00:25:42 For a lot of people, these would be life -changing
00:25:42 --> 00:25:45 amounts. And that decision about whether or not
00:25:45 --> 00:25:48 they owe the money, or whether they are going
00:25:48 --> 00:25:50 to be totally forgiven. That's made through an
00:25:50 --> 00:25:53 informal paper review governed by one sentence
00:25:53 --> 00:25:56 of the APA. This is what you mean by the APA
00:25:56 --> 00:25:58 gap? Yeah, we can have cases with really high
00:25:58 --> 00:26:01 stakes and minimal procedures and no statutory
00:26:01 --> 00:26:04 requirement for anything more. Okay, so let me
00:26:04 --> 00:26:06 make sure I've got this. Adjudication sounds
00:26:06 --> 00:26:09 like one thing, but it's actually a huge spectral.
00:26:09 --> 00:26:12 Yes. At one end, we have formal adjudication
00:26:12 --> 00:26:14 with all those trial -type procedures and cross
00:26:14 --> 00:26:16 -examination. At the other end, we have pure
00:26:16 --> 00:26:18 paper processing, and then there's everything
00:26:18 --> 00:26:21 in between. And the magic words on the record
00:26:21 --> 00:26:24 after opportunity for hearing determine whether
00:26:24 --> 00:26:27 you get the full protections. And the vast majority
00:26:27 --> 00:26:30 of the time, you don't. Most adjudications are
00:26:30 --> 00:26:33 informal. But when you do get a hearing, formal
00:26:33 --> 00:26:36 or something close to it, who's actually deciding
00:26:36 --> 00:26:38 your case? That's where things start to get complicated.
00:26:39 --> 00:26:41 Not all of these agency judges are created equal.
00:26:42 --> 00:26:45 What do you mean? So some are what I was talking
00:26:45 --> 00:26:47 about earlier, those administrative law judges
00:26:47 --> 00:26:51 that have serious independence protections. Others
00:26:51 --> 00:26:53 are agency employees who can be fired if their
00:26:53 --> 00:26:56 bosses don't like their decisions. Some aren't
00:26:56 --> 00:26:58 even called judges. Same function, different
00:26:58 --> 00:27:02 titles, different protections? Yes. And whether
00:27:02 --> 00:27:04 you get a truly independent decision maker or
00:27:04 --> 00:27:06 someone who answers to the agency that's prosecuting
00:27:06 --> 00:27:09 you, that can make all the difference. Okay.
00:27:09 --> 00:27:12 So then I think on the next episode, we should
00:27:12 --> 00:27:15 talk about who are these people deciding our
00:27:15 --> 00:27:19 cases and why does it matter? Great idea. Next
00:27:19 --> 00:27:22 time we will do ALJs, immigration judges, hearing
00:27:22 --> 00:27:25 officers, administrative judges, the whole landscape.
00:27:27 --> 00:27:29 So that does it for today's episode on administrative
00:27:29 --> 00:27:32 remedies. Thank you for joining us today. Please,
00:27:32 --> 00:27:34 if you enjoy this podcast, enjoy this episode,
00:27:34 --> 00:27:38 give us a like on Spotify, iTunes, or whatever
00:27:38 --> 00:27:41 platform you're listening on. And be sure to
00:27:41 --> 00:27:43 tune in next time where we'll continue to dive
00:27:43 --> 00:27:45 into the contours of administrative law, because
00:27:45 --> 00:27:47 remember, you can't fix what you don't understand.

