You Have to Prove Something’s Missing Before You Can Look for It: The Administrative Record
Administrative RemediesNovember 10, 2026x
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00:29:1526.82 MB

You Have to Prove Something’s Missing Before You Can Look for It: The Administrative Record

In March 2018, Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross announced that the 2020 census would include a citizenship question. The official story was straightforward: the Justice Department asked for citizenship data to enforce the Voting Rights Act, the Census Bureau studied how to collect it, and Ross decided to put the question on the form. The administrative record the government filed contained exactly that. The Justice request, the Bureau’s analyses, the Secretary’s explanation.

Then, after the litigation began, Ross filed a supplemental memorandum acknowledging he had been considering the question since early 2017, well before Justice asked, and that Commerce had asked whether Justice would make the request. That gave the plaintiffs something concrete: a reason to believe the record wasn’t complete. The parties eventually added more than twelve thousand pages of internal documents.

Gwen and Marc use that case to work through what the administrative record is, who assembles it, and what happens when someone thinks the court isn’t seeing everything. The agency whose decision is under review is also the party that builds the file the court will use to review it, and that arrangement is harder to replace than it first appears.

In this episode:

  • What belongs in the record: the proposed rule, the studies, the comments, the responses, and everything the agency considered directly or indirectly, not just what the administrator personally read
  • Three things worth keeping separate: the agency’s files, the public docket, and the record filed with the court
  • APA section 706 and the whole record, which includes material cutting against the agency’s conclusion
  • Overton Park, and why post-hoc affidavits can clarify an agency’s reasoning but can’t replace it
  • Why building a record that can withstand review isn’t evidence of bad faith, any more than drafting a contract a court might read someday
  • The presumption of regularity, and what a challenger needs before a court will test it
  • Completion versus supplementation, and why the distinction matters even though courts are inconsistent about the labels
  • The four circumstances in Lands Council v. Powell, including technical explanation and the strong showing required for bad faith
  • The chicken-and-egg problem: making a bad-faith showing without the documents that would prove it
  • What the Supreme Court actually held about the census, which wasn’t that Ross lacked authority or that a secretary can’t have policy preferences
  • The deliberative process privilege, and why protecting candid internal disagreement is a feature rather than a dodge
  • Blue Mountains Biodiversity Project, where pre-decisional material falls outside the record entirely, so there may be no privilege log and no way to know what was left out
  • The same questions in an individual adjudication: a disability claimant’s record, the ALJ’s duty to develop it fully, and the narrow route for new and material evidence

The record does two jobs at once. It gives the court what it needs to review the decision, and it sets the outer limit of that review. Those boundaries are what keep a court from taking over the agency’s job, and they are also what can make a real problem hard to find.

Next week: questions of law, questions of fact, and mixed questions, and why the same record produces very different review depending on which one the court is answering.

Full written explainer with cases, context, and related guides: remediespodcast.com/learn-administrative-record-explained


00:00:13 --> 00:00:15 Welcome to Administrative Remedies, because you
00:00:15 --> 00:00:17 can't fix what you don't understand. Brought
00:00:17 --> 00:00:19 to you in part by the University of Tulsa College
00:00:19 --> 00:00:22 of Law's Mabee Legal Information Center. I'm
00:00:22 --> 00:00:24 Gwendolyn Savitz, an associate professor here
00:00:24 --> 00:00:26 at TU. And I'm Marc Roark, a professor at the
00:00:26 --> 00:00:29 College of Law. We'll be breaking down complex
00:00:29 --> 00:00:31 doctrines with real-life analogies and examples
00:00:31 --> 00:00:33 to demystify the world of administrative law
00:00:33 --> 00:00:35 for everyone trying to understand how government
00:00:35 --> 00:00:38 actually works. Agencies are the main way the
00:00:38 --> 00:00:40 federal government gets things done. It's not
00:00:40 --> 00:00:42 through Congress, for reasons we'll be addressing
00:00:42 --> 00:00:45 over the course of the series. Let's go back
00:00:45 --> 00:00:48 to March 2018. This is when Commerce Secretary
00:00:48 --> 00:00:51 Wilbur Ross announced he was going to add a citizenship
00:00:51 --> 00:00:54 question to the 2020 census. Oh, I remember this
00:00:54 --> 00:00:57 controversy because there was a real concern
00:00:57 --> 00:00:59 that people wouldn't answer the census if they
00:00:59 --> 00:01:02 had to say whether they were citizens or not.
00:01:02 --> 00:01:04 Right. Particularly in immigrant communities.
00:01:04 --> 00:01:07 That matters because the census determines congressional
00:01:07 --> 00:01:09 representation and it allocates federal funding.
00:01:10 --> 00:01:12 So if people don't respond, the resulting population
00:01:12 --> 00:01:16 count may be inaccurate. But the government wanted
00:01:16 --> 00:01:19 the information for a particular reason. Yes.
00:01:19 --> 00:01:21 Ross explained that the Justice Department had
00:01:21 --> 00:01:23 requested citizenship data to help enforce the
00:01:23 --> 00:01:25 Voting Rights Act. And the Census Bureau had
00:01:25 --> 00:01:27 studied different ways to collect the information.
00:01:27 --> 00:01:30 And Ross decided to put the question on the census
00:01:30 --> 00:01:33 form. So Justice had asked for the data. Commerce
00:01:33 --> 00:01:36 considered the various options for how to get
00:01:36 --> 00:01:38 the data. And then the Secretary just made the
00:01:38 --> 00:01:40 decision to put the question on the form. That
00:01:40 --> 00:01:43 was the official explanation. But when the decision
00:01:43 --> 00:01:45 was challenged in court, the plaintiffs questioned
00:01:45 --> 00:01:47 whether that was actually how it had happened.
00:01:48 --> 00:01:51 What did they have to support the fact that there
00:01:51 --> 00:01:55 might be a more nefarious explanation? Initially,
00:01:55 --> 00:01:57 not much. The government had produced an administrative
00:01:57 --> 00:02:00 record, and it contained the Justice Department's
00:02:00 --> 00:02:02 request, the Census Bureau analyses, and the
00:02:02 --> 00:02:05 Secretary's explanation. And that's what the
00:02:05 --> 00:02:07 court would normally examine in an administrative
00:02:07 --> 00:02:11 case. Yes. But then after the litigation began,
00:02:11 --> 00:02:14 Ross supplied another memorandum. This was at
00:02:14 --> 00:02:18 the instigation of the Justice Department. This
00:02:18 --> 00:02:20 one acknowledged that he'd been considering adding
00:02:20 --> 00:02:23 a citizenship question since early 2017, well
00:02:23 --> 00:02:26 before Justice had made its request. He also
00:02:26 --> 00:02:27 acknowledged that Commerce had asked whether
00:02:27 --> 00:02:29 Justice would formally request the question.
00:02:29 --> 00:02:33 So Commerce might not have been responding to
00:02:33 --> 00:02:35 a request from Justice. Commerce might have been
00:02:35 --> 00:02:38 trying to get Justice to make that request on
00:02:38 --> 00:02:40 its behalf. That's certainly what it looked like.
00:02:40 --> 00:02:42 So this new memorandum gave the plaintiffs something
00:02:42 --> 00:02:44 concrete, and they argued that the government
00:02:44 --> 00:02:47 hadn't supplied the complete administrative record.
00:02:47 --> 00:02:49 Because the documents showing what had happened
00:02:49 --> 00:02:52 before Justice's request just simply weren't
00:02:52 --> 00:02:54 there. Right. So the district court ordered the
00:02:54 --> 00:02:57 government to complete the record. The parties
00:02:57 --> 00:02:59 then agreed to add more than 12 pages of
00:02:59 --> 00:03:03 internal documents. 12 pages. How do you
00:03:03 --> 00:03:06 go through 12 pages? The same way you do
00:03:06 --> 00:03:09 in any regular litigation, page by page. These
00:03:09 --> 00:03:12 additional documents further undermined the Secretary's
00:03:12 --> 00:03:16 explanation. So the missing documents actually mattered
00:03:16 --> 00:03:20 for what Commerce had decided. Very much so.
00:03:20 --> 00:03:22 But the district court had also authorized an
00:03:22 --> 00:03:24 investigation beyond the administrative record.
00:03:25 --> 00:03:26 And when the case reached the Supreme Court,
00:03:26 --> 00:03:28 the justices said that the district court had
00:03:28 --> 00:03:30 gone too far in authorizing that investigation
00:03:30 --> 00:03:33 when it did. So even though the investigation
00:03:33 --> 00:03:36 uncovered something important for the trial court's
00:03:36 --> 00:03:39 determinations... Right. It didn't have the authority
00:03:39 --> 00:03:43 to ask for an additional investigation. Yes.
00:03:43 --> 00:03:45 To understand why, we have to distinguish the
00:03:45 --> 00:03:47 administrative record from the evidence that
00:03:47 --> 00:03:49 a court can obtain outside the administrative
00:03:49 --> 00:03:52 record. Which means we need to know what counts
00:03:52 --> 00:03:54 as the administrative record in the first place.
00:03:54 --> 00:03:57 Yes. That's our subject today. What belongs in
00:03:57 --> 00:04:00 the record, who puts it together, and what happens
00:04:00 --> 00:04:02 when the parties disagree about whether the court
00:04:02 --> 00:04:05 has the information it needs. Okay, so let's
00:04:05 --> 00:04:08 get to the basics. So what exactly counts as
00:04:08 --> 00:04:10 an administrative record? Is it everything the
00:04:10 --> 00:04:13 agency has about a particular decision in front
00:04:13 --> 00:04:17 of it? Let's work this through. Suppose EPA wants
00:04:17 --> 00:04:19 to adopt a new rule that's limiting emissions
00:04:19 --> 00:04:22 from industrial plants. Okay. It publishes a
00:04:22 --> 00:04:24 proposed regulation. It has scientific studies
00:04:24 --> 00:04:27 explaining the environmental problems. It has
00:04:27 --> 00:04:29 technical analyses of possible approaches. It
00:04:29 --> 00:04:31 should have economic assessments of the costs.
00:04:31 --> 00:04:34 It has input from the public when they get the
00:04:34 --> 00:04:36 opportunity to comment. Yeah. So at that point,
00:04:36 --> 00:04:38 environmental organizations might argue that
00:04:38 --> 00:04:40 the proposed limit isn't stringent enough or
00:04:40 --> 00:04:42 industry groups might challenge EPA's assumptions
00:04:42 --> 00:04:45 or propose less expensive alternatives. State
00:04:45 --> 00:04:47 governments might also identify implementation
00:04:47 --> 00:04:50 problems. EPA considers the comments and publishes
00:04:50 --> 00:04:52 a final rule explaining its decision. So the
00:04:52 --> 00:04:56 court gets all of that. The record includes all
00:04:56 --> 00:04:58 the materials properly comprising the agency's
00:04:58 --> 00:05:00 decision-making record. The proposed rules,
00:05:00 --> 00:05:02 the supporting studies, the public comments,
00:05:02 --> 00:05:05 the responses to significant comments, and any
00:05:05 --> 00:05:08 other material considered by the agency. And
00:05:08 --> 00:05:10 it isn't limited to documents the administrator
00:05:10 --> 00:05:12 personally read. The starting point is material
00:05:12 --> 00:05:15 that the agency considered, directly or indirectly,
00:05:15 --> 00:05:17 in making the decision. There are actually three
00:05:17 --> 00:05:20 things we should keep separate. Everything the
00:05:20 --> 00:05:22 agency has in its files, the material available
00:05:22 --> 00:05:25 in the public rulemaking docket, and the administrative
00:05:25 --> 00:05:27 record it submits to the court. Those overlap,
00:05:27 --> 00:05:31 but they are by no means identical. And for a major
00:05:31 --> 00:05:33 regulation, the administrative record can contain
00:05:33 --> 00:05:35 thousands or tens of thousands of pages. Okay,
00:05:35 --> 00:05:38 that sounds like an enormous amount of material
00:05:38 --> 00:05:41 for a single judge to examine. It would be, but
00:05:41 --> 00:05:43 remember what the judge is doing. The judge isn't
00:05:43 --> 00:05:45 conducting a new scientific study or deciding
00:05:45 --> 00:05:47 which emissions standards would be best. The
00:05:47 --> 00:05:49 judge is reviewing the decision the EPA already
00:05:49 --> 00:05:54 made. So the material EPA had when it acted is
00:05:54 --> 00:05:57 what matters for the court's determinations.
00:05:57 --> 00:06:00 Yes, that's the general principle. And Congress
00:06:00 --> 00:06:03 included a provision in section 706 of the APA telling
00:06:03 --> 00:06:05 courts to review the whole record or the parts
00:06:05 --> 00:06:08 cited by a party when deciding whether agency
00:06:08 --> 00:06:11 action is lawful. OK, does the statute then define
00:06:11 --> 00:06:14 what belongs in the record? Not for ordinary
00:06:14 --> 00:06:16 informal agency action. It doesn't prescribe
00:06:16 --> 00:06:18 a complete set of rules for assembling the record,
00:06:19 --> 00:06:21 or tell courts precisely how to handle a claim
00:06:21 --> 00:06:23 that documents are missing. So those details
00:06:23 --> 00:06:27 come from judicial decisions? Yes, largely. One
00:06:27 --> 00:06:29 of the foundational cases here is the one we
00:06:29 --> 00:06:31 talked about last week. This was Citizens to Preserve
00:06:31 --> 00:06:34 Overton Park, the highway through the park in
00:06:34 --> 00:06:37 Memphis. Okay, we discussed it because of the
00:06:37 --> 00:06:40 exception for agency action committed to agency
00:06:40 --> 00:06:43 discretion. Right, but it also addressed what
00:06:43 --> 00:06:44 courts should review when an agency decision
00:06:44 --> 00:06:47 is subject to judicial review. The government
00:06:47 --> 00:06:49 had relied on affidavits prepared after the
00:06:49 --> 00:06:51 lawsuit began to explain the highway approval.
00:06:52 --> 00:06:54 Instead of an explanation from when the decision
00:06:54 --> 00:06:57 was made. Right. And the Supreme Court said that
00:06:57 --> 00:06:59 those affidavits couldn't substitute for the
00:06:59 --> 00:07:02 actual administrative record. But if the record
00:07:02 --> 00:07:04 didn't adequately explain the decision, the Court
00:07:04 --> 00:07:06 said that officials could potentially be asked
00:07:06 --> 00:07:08 for additional explanation. So the problem isn't
00:07:08 --> 00:07:12 simply that an explanation comes later. Right.
00:07:12 --> 00:07:15 Later explanation can sometimes clarify the agency's
00:07:15 --> 00:07:18 original reasoning. What it can't do is replace
00:07:18 --> 00:07:19 that reasoning with a different justification.
00:07:20 --> 00:07:23 We will return to that distinction in our episode
00:07:23 --> 00:07:26 on Chenery that's coming up. But the practical
00:07:26 --> 00:07:28 consequence of that is that agencies need to
00:07:28 --> 00:07:31 document their decisions as they are making them.
00:07:31 --> 00:07:33 Yes. If a court is going to examine what the
00:07:33 --> 00:07:36 agency considered and how it explained its decision,
00:07:36 --> 00:07:38 agencies have a strong incentive to create and
00:07:38 --> 00:07:42 preserve that material. Which seems like a basic
00:07:42 --> 00:07:46 tenet of reviewing administrative things in
00:07:46 --> 00:07:48 a separation of powers system. Yeah, it often
00:07:48 --> 00:07:53 is. So I don't see why we'd criticize an agency
00:07:53 --> 00:07:56 for preparing a record that can withstand judicial
00:07:56 --> 00:07:59 review, right? A lawyer drafting a contract knows
00:07:59 --> 00:08:02 a court might read it someday. That doesn't mean
00:08:02 --> 00:08:04 the contract is dishonest. Right. The prospect
00:08:04 --> 00:08:06 of judicial review doesn't make the agency's
00:08:06 --> 00:08:10 record dishonest. An agency that carefully documents
00:08:10 --> 00:08:12 the evidence, that considers alternatives, and
00:08:12 --> 00:08:14 that explains its decision may be doing exactly
00:08:14 --> 00:08:16 what the law is supposed to encourage. And the
00:08:16 --> 00:08:18 record could contain material that undermines
00:08:18 --> 00:08:22 the agency's conclusion, not just material supporting
00:08:22 --> 00:08:24 it. Right. The whole record includes material
00:08:24 --> 00:08:26 that detracts from its ultimate conclusion, as
00:08:26 --> 00:08:28 well as material supporting it. Okay, so then
00:08:28 --> 00:08:31 the real question is whether the court actually
00:08:31 --> 00:08:34 receives that whole record. How does that work
00:08:34 --> 00:08:37 in practice? If the EPA issues a regulation and
00:08:37 --> 00:08:42 someone challenges it, what now? The agency assembles
00:08:42 --> 00:08:44 the administrative record for the court. It identifies
00:08:44 --> 00:08:46 the material that belongs in the record. It prepares
00:08:46 --> 00:08:49 an index. And it typically files a certification
00:08:49 --> 00:08:52 that the record is complete. So the agency chooses
00:08:52 --> 00:08:55 the documents and certifies that it has given
00:08:55 --> 00:08:57 the court everything that it's supposed to. Yes.
00:08:58 --> 00:09:01 And that certification is just taken at face
00:09:01 --> 00:09:04 value. Generally, it receives what we call a
00:09:04 --> 00:09:06 presumption of regularity. Courts ordinarily
00:09:06 --> 00:09:09 presume that public officials have properly performed
00:09:09 --> 00:09:11 their duties, and that would include compiling
00:09:11 --> 00:09:14 the administrative record. But I can see a practical
00:09:14 --> 00:09:16 problem here, right? The party whose decision
00:09:16 --> 00:09:19 is being challenged is also responsible for assembling
00:09:19 --> 00:09:22 the material the court will use to review that
00:09:22 --> 00:09:25 decision. Yes, it's easy to see the issues there,
00:09:25 --> 00:09:27 but the problem is who else would be in a position
00:09:27 --> 00:09:29 to assemble it? The agency has the files. The
00:09:29 --> 00:09:32 agency knows who worked on the decision. That
00:09:32 --> 00:09:34 doesn't resolve how completeness should be tested,
00:09:34 --> 00:09:36 but it explains why we would want the agency
00:09:36 --> 00:09:39 creating the record to begin with. That's the
00:09:39 --> 00:09:40 part I'm a little concerned about, right? It
00:09:40 --> 00:09:44 seems to presume some level of agency neutrality.
00:09:45 --> 00:09:48 How can a challenger verify that that collection
00:09:48 --> 00:09:51 is complete if they weren't a participant in
00:09:51 --> 00:09:53 putting together that collection in the first
00:09:53 --> 00:09:55 place? They can certainly contest completeness,
00:09:55 --> 00:09:57 but they generally need some sort of concrete
00:09:57 --> 00:09:59 reason to believe that material has been omitted.
00:09:59 --> 00:10:01 Okay, give me an example of what that might look
00:10:01 --> 00:10:04 like. Okay, so we're thinking about that EPA
00:10:04 --> 00:10:06 proposed rule on emissions. There might be something
00:10:06 --> 00:10:08 in there that refers to an internal study that
00:10:08 --> 00:10:11 doesn't appear in the record. Or there might
00:10:11 --> 00:10:13 be a memorandum that mentions a meeting report
00:10:13 --> 00:10:15 that isn't included. Or a comment response relies
00:10:15 --> 00:10:17 on an analysis that the agency hasn't supplied.
00:10:18 --> 00:10:20 And then the challenger can point to the reference
00:10:20 --> 00:10:24 and say, where's that document? Yes. And if the
00:10:24 --> 00:10:26 document was considered by the agency and properly
00:10:26 --> 00:10:29 belongs in the administrative record, the challenger
00:10:29 --> 00:10:31 can ask the court to require its inclusion. Which
00:10:31 --> 00:10:34 is what happened in the census case. Yeah. Ross's
00:10:34 --> 00:10:36 supplemental memorandum revealed that the decision-
00:10:36 --> 00:10:39 making process had begun much earlier than the
00:10:39 --> 00:10:41 original record suggested. This gave the plaintiffs
00:10:41 --> 00:10:44 a specific reason to argue that the record was
00:10:44 --> 00:10:46 incomplete. And the district court ordered the
00:10:46 --> 00:10:49 missing material should be produced. Yes. So
00:10:49 --> 00:10:52 they're supposed to be completing the administrative
00:10:52 --> 00:10:55 record at that point. How is that different from
00:10:55 --> 00:10:57 supplementing it? Courts are really inconsistent
00:10:57 --> 00:11:00 about labels here, but there is theoretically
00:11:00 --> 00:11:03 an important underlying distinction. Completing
00:11:03 --> 00:11:05 the record would mean adding material that belonged
00:11:05 --> 00:11:07 in the record in the first place because it was
00:11:07 --> 00:11:09 before the agency when it was acting. So you're
00:11:09 --> 00:11:13 correcting an omission. Yes. By contrast, extra-
00:11:13 --> 00:11:15 record evidence, or supplementing in some cases,
00:11:16 --> 00:11:18 that's the term they might use, could mean asking
00:11:18 --> 00:11:20 the reviewing court to consider material that
00:11:20 --> 00:11:22 wasn't part of the agency's decision-making
00:11:22 --> 00:11:25 record. Okay. Again, let's give me another example
00:11:25 --> 00:11:28 of this. Okay. So EPA is issuing this emissions
00:11:28 --> 00:11:31 regulation, and it's doing it based on the scientific
00:11:31 --> 00:11:33 evidence that's available at the time. And then
00:11:33 --> 00:11:35 six months later, a new study appears, and it
00:11:35 --> 00:11:38 suggests that EPA underestimated the health effects
00:11:38 --> 00:11:41 of the pollutant. So the study didn't exist when
00:11:41 --> 00:11:44 EPA made its decision. Right. It couldn't have
00:11:44 --> 00:11:45 been part of the record. The challenger generally
00:11:45 --> 00:11:48 can't simply introduce a study in federal court
00:11:48 --> 00:11:50 and demand that the judge decide whether the
00:11:50 --> 00:11:51 regulation should have been different. Because
00:11:51 --> 00:11:54 EPA never had the opportunity to consider it
00:11:54 --> 00:11:57 as part of its rulemaking process. Yes. One possible
00:11:57 --> 00:11:59 avenue there would be to petition the agency
00:11:59 --> 00:12:02 to reconsider the rule or amend the rule in light
00:12:02 --> 00:12:05 of this new evidence. But judicial review of
00:12:05 --> 00:12:08 the original decision generally focuses on the
00:12:08 --> 00:12:10 material that was before the agency when it acted.
00:12:10 --> 00:12:12 So completing the record and bringing in new
00:12:12 --> 00:12:15 evidence are conceptually different. One asks
00:12:15 --> 00:12:18 whether the court has the material the agency
00:12:18 --> 00:12:20 considered. The other asks the court to consider
00:12:20 --> 00:12:23 material the agency didn't. Yes. And the second
00:12:23 --> 00:12:25 one raises a problem that doesn't arise in the
00:12:25 --> 00:12:27 same way with completion. The judge would start
00:12:27 --> 00:12:30 making factual judgments the agency never made.
00:12:31 --> 00:12:33 Yes. Agencies have the responsibility that Congress
00:12:33 --> 00:12:36 has delegated to them. If a court routinely takes
00:12:36 --> 00:12:38 new evidence and decides the factual and policy
00:12:38 --> 00:12:41 questions itself, judicial review starts to become
00:12:41 --> 00:12:43 a substitute for the agency decision-making
00:12:43 --> 00:12:46 to begin with. But that doesn't answer what happens
00:12:46 --> 00:12:48 when there's evidence that the agency ignored
00:12:48 --> 00:12:51 something important along the way. Yes, this
00:12:51 --> 00:12:53 is why courts have limited circumstances when
00:12:53 --> 00:12:55 they can look beyond the regular administrative
00:12:55 --> 00:12:59 record. Okay, so I'm assuming these circumstances
00:12:59 --> 00:13:02 are narrower than the discovery we'd ordinarily
00:13:02 --> 00:13:05 have in a civil litigation case. Good guess.
00:13:05 --> 00:13:09 Much narrower. Different circuits formulate the
00:13:09 --> 00:13:11 exceptions somewhat differently, but one frequently
00:13:11 --> 00:13:13 cited approach is from the Ninth Circuit's decision
00:13:13 --> 00:13:16 in Lands Council v. Powell. Okay, what does that
00:13:16 --> 00:13:18 decision allow? They identified four circumstances
00:13:18 --> 00:13:21 when this would be allowed. One would be documents
00:13:21 --> 00:13:23 the agency relied on but omitted from the record.
00:13:23 --> 00:13:26 That's the completeness issue we just discussed.
00:13:26 --> 00:13:28 The others concern evidence needed to determine
00:13:28 --> 00:13:31 whether the agency considered relevant factors,
00:13:31 --> 00:13:33 technical explanations needed to understand what's
00:13:33 --> 00:13:36 in the record, and evidence of bad faith or improper
00:13:36 --> 00:13:39 behavior. Let's take the technical one first.
00:13:39 --> 00:13:42 What would that look like? So if EPA had relied
00:13:42 --> 00:13:45 on some sort of complicated atmospheric model,
00:13:45 --> 00:13:47 the model is in the administrative record, but
00:13:47 --> 00:13:50 the judge doesn't really understand how it works.
00:13:50 --> 00:13:52 In this case, we might have explanatory expert
00:13:52 --> 00:13:55 material to help the judge understand how the
00:13:55 --> 00:13:57 model worked and what the technical issues were
00:13:57 --> 00:14:00 before the agency. But the expert isn't supposed
00:14:00 --> 00:14:03 to offer an entirely new scientific justification
00:14:03 --> 00:14:06 for the regulation. Right. The purpose here is
00:14:06 --> 00:14:10 just to help explain what's already there, like
00:14:10 --> 00:14:12 explain it in a way that it can be understood by
00:14:12 --> 00:14:14 the judge, not to replace it. And the relevant
00:14:14 --> 00:14:18 factors exception? This could be when outside
00:14:18 --> 00:14:19 materials are needed to determine whether the
00:14:19 --> 00:14:21 agency considered something that the law required
00:14:21 --> 00:14:24 it to consider. And courts apply that pretty
00:14:24 --> 00:14:27 cautiously. This is not intended to be a general
00:14:27 --> 00:14:29 opportunity to introduce every study or argument
00:14:29 --> 00:14:31 that a challenger wishes the agency had considered.
00:14:32 --> 00:14:35 OK, so what if there's evidence the agency deliberately,
00:14:35 --> 00:14:39 like, turned a blind eye to something obvious,
00:14:39 --> 00:14:41 that it specifically left something out? Here,
00:14:41 --> 00:14:43 courts generally require a strong showing of
00:14:43 --> 00:14:45 bad faith or improper behavior before they're
00:14:45 --> 00:14:48 going to even allow an inquiry into the agency
00:14:48 --> 00:14:51 decision-maker's mental processes. That's different
00:14:51 --> 00:14:53 from identifying a specific document that belongs
00:14:53 --> 00:14:55 in the record but has been omitted. But how do
00:14:55 --> 00:14:58 you make that showing without access to the documents
00:14:58 --> 00:15:01 that might prove it? Sometimes information is
00:15:01 --> 00:15:04 already available that reveals the problem. A
00:15:04 --> 00:15:06 public statement that might contradict the agency's
00:15:06 --> 00:15:08 explanation, or the record itself could refer
00:15:08 --> 00:15:11 to missing documents, or materials obtained through
00:15:11 --> 00:15:13 another process could expose a discrepancy. So
00:15:13 --> 00:15:15 the evidence needed to get beyond the record
00:15:15 --> 00:15:18 may have to come from somewhere other than discovery
00:15:18 --> 00:15:21 in that lawsuit. Yes. Courts generally won't
00:15:21 --> 00:15:23 authorize any sort of broad discovery merely
00:15:23 --> 00:15:25 because a plaintiff suspects that something improper
00:15:25 --> 00:15:28 happened. Which brings us back to the census
00:15:28 --> 00:15:32 case. Yes. Here is where the government initially
00:15:32 --> 00:15:33 supplied what it said was the administrative
00:15:33 --> 00:15:36 record. Ross then submitted his additional memorandum,
00:15:36 --> 00:15:38 revealing he'd been considering the citizenship
00:15:38 --> 00:15:40 question before the Justice Department's request.
00:15:41 --> 00:15:43 And that gave the plaintiffs grounds to question
00:15:43 --> 00:15:46 whether the record was complete. Right. And at
00:15:46 --> 00:15:48 that point, the district court ordered completion.
00:15:48 --> 00:15:52 But at the same time, it also authorized extra-
00:15:52 --> 00:15:55 record discovery. So there were two distinctive
00:15:55 --> 00:15:58 steps here. Yes. And on review, the Supreme Court
00:15:58 --> 00:16:00 said that the second one was premature, that
00:16:00 --> 00:16:02 at that point, the court should have required
00:16:02 --> 00:16:05 completion of the record. We know stuff is missing,
00:16:05 --> 00:16:08 but it was premature for it to authorize a broader
00:16:08 --> 00:16:11 investigation. So what changed after the additional
00:16:11 --> 00:16:14 documents were produced? At that point, they
00:16:14 --> 00:16:16 showed that the Secretary had been determined
00:16:16 --> 00:16:18 to add the citizenship question, that Commerce
00:16:18 --> 00:16:20 had been looking for another agency to request
00:16:20 --> 00:16:22 it, and that the Voting Rights Act rationale
00:16:22 --> 00:16:24 played a very small role in the actual decision-
00:16:24 --> 00:16:27 making. And that provided a stronger basis for
00:16:27 --> 00:16:30 going beyond the record. Yes. The Supreme Court
00:16:30 --> 00:16:34 said that the expanded record largely justified
00:16:34 --> 00:16:36 the extra-record discovery that occurred. The
00:16:36 --> 00:16:38 Court then considered the evidence, including
00:16:38 --> 00:16:40 that additional material, when it was evaluating
00:16:40 --> 00:16:43 the government's explanation. And it concluded
00:16:43 --> 00:16:46 that the explanation was basically contrived.
00:16:46 --> 00:16:50 Yes. But we want to be really clear about what
00:16:50 --> 00:16:53 exactly it said was wrong. OK, so it wasn't necessarily
00:16:53 --> 00:16:56 that Ross had wanted the citizenship question
00:16:56 --> 00:16:59 before Justice requested it. Right. They explicitly
00:16:59 --> 00:17:01 said it's fine for cabinet secretaries to have
00:17:01 --> 00:17:04 policy preferences. Agencies are part of an elected
00:17:04 --> 00:17:06 administration. Political considerations can
00:17:06 --> 00:17:09 legitimately influence policy. And the Court
00:17:09 --> 00:17:12 explicitly recognized that. Yeah. So Ross could
00:17:12 --> 00:17:15 lawfully favor adding the question and look for
00:17:15 --> 00:17:17 information that would support his own agency
00:17:17 --> 00:17:20 and his own policy. Right. But to do that, the
00:17:20 --> 00:17:22 agency still had to give a genuine explanation
00:17:22 --> 00:17:24 for the decision it made. The problem was that
00:17:24 --> 00:17:26 the Voting Rights Act rationale didn't adequately
00:17:26 --> 00:17:28 account for what the evidence showed about the
00:17:28 --> 00:17:31 real decision-making. So the Court wasn't saying
00:17:31 --> 00:17:34 the Secretary lacked the authority to add a citizenship
00:17:34 --> 00:17:37 question. Right. The Court recognized his statutory
00:17:37 --> 00:17:40 authority and rejected a constitutional challenge
00:17:40 --> 00:17:42 under the Enumeration Clause. The problem was
00:17:42 --> 00:17:44 that the explanation given for exercising the
00:17:44 --> 00:17:46 authority in that particular decision was problematic.
00:17:47 --> 00:17:49 And having that authority to make a decision
00:17:49 --> 00:17:52 doesn't mean that every explanation for exercising
00:17:52 --> 00:17:56 that authority will be legally sufficient. Right.
00:17:56 --> 00:17:58 The additional documents here were what exposed
00:17:58 --> 00:18:01 the difference. The census case shows why completing
00:18:01 --> 00:18:03 an administrative record can matter enormously.
00:18:03 --> 00:18:06 It also shows why courts are cautious about authorizing
00:18:06 --> 00:18:08 extra-record discovery before there's some sort
00:18:08 --> 00:18:11 of adequate justification for it. Okay. There
00:18:11 --> 00:18:13 is also something else buried here, right? Surely
00:18:13 --> 00:18:16 the government doesn't have to turn over every
00:18:16 --> 00:18:19 single draft, every internal email, every disagreement
00:18:19 --> 00:18:22 among staff members when it's creating the record.
00:18:22 --> 00:18:24 Right. Now we can talk about the deliberative
00:18:24 --> 00:18:28 process privilege. Okay. And I assume the idea
00:18:28 --> 00:18:30 is similar to protecting legal advice or other
00:18:30 --> 00:18:33 confidential discussions. People need some freedom
00:18:33 --> 00:18:36 to consider options before making a final decision.
00:18:36 --> 00:18:39 Yeah. Think about an agency preparing a regulation.
00:18:39 --> 00:18:41 One scientist recommends a particular approach.
00:18:41 --> 00:18:43 Another thinks the supporting evidence is too
00:18:43 --> 00:18:46 weak. A policy official suggests a compromise.
00:18:46 --> 00:18:48 Lawyers disagree about whether the statute permits
00:18:48 --> 00:18:51 it. Draft explanations circulate. People revise
00:18:51 --> 00:18:54 them. And if every suggestion became publicly
00:18:54 --> 00:18:57 available, officials might become reluctant to
00:18:57 --> 00:18:59 put anything controversial in writing. Right.
00:18:59 --> 00:19:02 That's the concern, that the deliberative process
00:19:02 --> 00:19:04 privilege protects certain material that's both
00:19:04 --> 00:19:08 pre-decisional and deliberative. So it has to
00:19:08 --> 00:19:10 come before the decision and reflect the process
00:19:10 --> 00:19:13 of arriving at that decision. Right. So a draft
00:19:13 --> 00:19:15 memorandum recommending a course of action might
00:19:15 --> 00:19:19 qualify. An internal debate about competing approaches
00:19:19 --> 00:19:22 might qualify. But purely factual material isn't
00:19:22 --> 00:19:25 necessarily protected. And material adopted
00:19:25 --> 00:19:27 by the agency as its reasoning also would be
00:19:27 --> 00:19:30 treated differently. And this is related to FOIA.
00:19:30 --> 00:19:33 Sort of. The Freedom of Information Act's Exemption
00:19:33 --> 00:19:35 5 incorporates a deliberative process privilege,
00:19:35 --> 00:19:38 among other privileges. But the question of whether
00:19:38 --> 00:19:40 a document must be disclosed under FOIA is distinct
00:19:40 --> 00:19:42 from whether it belongs in the record for judicial
00:19:42 --> 00:19:45 review. Okay, it seems like there's another potential
00:19:45 --> 00:19:48 dispute here then. Is the agency withholding
00:19:48 --> 00:19:50 a document because it's privileged, or is it
00:19:50 --> 00:19:52 saying the document was never part of the administrative
00:19:52 --> 00:19:54 record in the first place? Yes, that's a big
00:19:54 --> 00:19:58 deal, and it's not totally clear. Courts have
00:19:58 --> 00:20:00 taken both approaches. In a case called Blue
00:20:00 --> 00:20:03 Mountains Biodiversity Project v. Jeffries, the
00:20:03 --> 00:20:05 Ninth Circuit held that pre-decisional deliberative
00:20:05 --> 00:20:07 documents generally fall outside the administrative
00:20:07 --> 00:20:10 record in the first place. Even though the agency
00:20:10 --> 00:20:12 officials may have considered them while making
00:20:12 --> 00:20:15 a decision. Right. So under this approach, an
00:20:15 --> 00:20:18 agency ordinarily doesn't have to identify those
00:20:18 --> 00:20:20 excluded documents on some sort of privilege
00:20:20 --> 00:20:22 log. A court can require a log in appropriate
00:20:22 --> 00:20:25 circumstances, including if there is some sort
00:20:25 --> 00:20:27 of sufficient showing of bad faith or improper
00:20:27 --> 00:20:30 behavior, but it isn't the default. So the problem
00:20:30 --> 00:20:33 isn't just that the challenger can't read the
00:20:33 --> 00:20:34 documents. The challenger may have no way of
00:20:34 --> 00:20:37 knowing which documents were excluded or if they
00:20:37 --> 00:20:40 even existed. Right. And not every court is going
00:20:40 --> 00:20:42 to approach this issue in the same way. Some
00:20:42 --> 00:20:44 judges have required agencies to identify documents
00:20:44 --> 00:20:46 that they've withheld on privilege grounds.
00:20:46 --> 00:20:48 Okay, I can see the concern about omissions,
00:20:48 --> 00:20:51 but I don't think the solution can be to require
00:20:51 --> 00:20:54 disclosure of every internal disagreement. Okay,
00:20:54 --> 00:20:57 why not? Well, I mean, disagreement is part of
00:20:57 --> 00:20:59 making a decision. Suppose an agency scientist
00:20:59 --> 00:21:02 initially thinks a proposal is unsafe. Other
00:21:02 --> 00:21:05 scientists challenge her calculations, she reexamines
00:21:05 --> 00:21:08 the evidence, she changes her mind, and the original
00:21:08 --> 00:21:11 disagreement doesn't necessarily show that the
00:21:11 --> 00:21:14 agency had acted improperly. Right. A disagreement
00:21:14 --> 00:21:17 could reflect the agency doing exactly what we
00:21:17 --> 00:21:19 want it to do, evaluating competing arguments
00:21:19 --> 00:21:21 before deciding. And if every tentative concern
00:21:21 --> 00:21:24 gets treated as evidence of wrongdoing, officials
00:21:24 --> 00:21:27 will have an incentive to keep those conversations
00:21:27 --> 00:21:30 off paper. That could make the actual decision-
00:21:30 --> 00:21:33 making worse. Right. That's why we have the
00:21:33 --> 00:21:35 privilege. It's protecting candid deliberation.
00:21:35 --> 00:21:38 But there's also a competing concern. An agency
00:21:38 --> 00:21:40 could give the court a polished explanation while
00:21:40 --> 00:21:42 the internal discussion reveals that important
00:21:42 --> 00:21:44 evidence was ignored or that the stated justification
00:21:44 --> 00:21:47 wasn't the real reason for the decision. So evidence
00:21:47 --> 00:21:50 that raises questions about the decision doesn't
00:21:50 --> 00:21:52 automatically make every internal discussion
00:21:52 --> 00:21:54 available. Right. Whether a court can investigate
00:21:54 --> 00:21:56 further and whether a particular document is
00:21:56 --> 00:21:59 protected are separate questions. But in the
00:21:59 --> 00:22:01 census case, the plaintiffs did get access to
00:22:01 --> 00:22:05 internal discussions. And that was unusual. Again,
00:22:05 --> 00:22:07 the parties agreed at that point to add more
00:22:07 --> 00:22:09 than 12 pages of internal material to the
00:22:09 --> 00:22:11 record. Challengers ordinarily don't get that
00:22:11 --> 00:22:14 kind of access to agency deliberations. Which
00:22:14 --> 00:22:16 means the whole administrative record isn't necessarily
00:22:16 --> 00:22:19 a complete history of everything that happened
00:22:19 --> 00:22:22 inside the agency. Right. It isn't. And the court
00:22:22 --> 00:22:24 ordinarily reviews the agency's documented decision-
00:22:24 --> 00:22:27 making subject to the legal rules governing
00:22:27 --> 00:22:29 what belongs in the record and what may be withheld
00:22:29 --> 00:22:32 or excluded. Okay. We have been talking about
00:22:32 --> 00:22:35 agencies adopting regulations, but what happens
00:22:35 --> 00:22:38 when the agency is deciding an individual case
00:22:38 --> 00:22:41 instead? Okay, here we can pull out Kathleen
00:22:41 --> 00:22:43 again. Do you remember her, the warehouse supervisor
00:22:43 --> 00:22:45 from last season who'd applied for Social Security
00:22:45 --> 00:22:48 disability benefits? Yeah, she worked for 22
00:22:48 --> 00:22:50 years, developed degenerative disc disease, and
00:22:50 --> 00:22:53 was denied benefits after going through the agency's
00:22:53 --> 00:22:55 process, including a hearing before an administrative
00:22:55 --> 00:22:58 law judge. You do know her. So now her Appeals
00:22:58 --> 00:23:00 Council proceedings are over, and she can seek
00:23:00 --> 00:23:03 judicial review in federal district court. And
00:23:03 --> 00:23:05 the judge gets an administrative record to review.
00:23:06 --> 00:23:08 Yes, but instead of a proposed rule and public
00:23:08 --> 00:23:11 comments and technical studies, her record contains
00:23:11 --> 00:23:14 her applications, her medical evidence, her work
00:23:14 --> 00:23:16 history information, the hearing testimony, exhibits,
00:23:17 --> 00:23:19 and the agency's decisions. It was developed
00:23:19 --> 00:23:22 as the agency evaluated her particular claim.
00:23:22 --> 00:23:25 Right. She still has to support her claim, but
00:23:25 --> 00:23:27 the ALJ also has an affirmative duty to develop
00:23:27 --> 00:23:30 a full and fair record. But if something important
00:23:30 --> 00:23:33 never makes it into that record, she may have
00:23:33 --> 00:23:35 a problem when she gets to federal court. Yeah.
00:23:35 --> 00:23:37 The judicial review of Social Security disability
00:23:37 --> 00:23:40 determinations has its own rules about how that
00:23:40 --> 00:23:42 works. There are limited circumstances in which
00:23:42 --> 00:23:44 a federal court can remand for new and material
00:23:44 --> 00:23:46 evidence when there's good cause for not having
00:23:46 --> 00:23:50 presented it earlier. But the federal judge doesn't
00:23:50 --> 00:23:52 simply hold a new disability hearing. Right.
00:23:52 --> 00:23:55 The judge reviews the agency's decision on the
00:23:55 --> 00:23:58 administrative record under the applicable statutory
00:23:58 --> 00:24:01 standards. So the same general idea applies,
00:24:02 --> 00:24:04 even though the process that created Kathleen's
00:24:04 --> 00:24:07 record is quite different from the EPA's rulemaking
00:24:07 --> 00:24:10 process. Yes. So a rulemaking record could be
00:24:10 --> 00:24:13 developed through a public process in which interested
00:24:13 --> 00:24:16 parties submit studies and comments, and an individual
00:24:16 --> 00:24:19 adjudication record can depend on testimony,
00:24:19 --> 00:24:21 documents, and evidence gathered in the hearing
00:24:21 --> 00:24:23 process. Which means the opportunities to get
00:24:23 --> 00:24:26 information into the record are really quite
00:24:26 --> 00:24:28 different. And those opportunities matter because
00:24:28 --> 00:24:30 the evidence developed during the administrative
00:24:30 --> 00:24:32 process plays a central role in what the reviewing
00:24:32 --> 00:24:35 court can evaluate. And the whole record has
00:24:35 --> 00:24:37 to include material that cuts against the agency's
00:24:37 --> 00:24:40 conclusion, not just what supports it. Right.
00:24:40 --> 00:24:42 And that becomes particularly important when
00:24:42 --> 00:24:44 courts are reviewing factual findings. But we'll
00:24:44 --> 00:24:45 examine that more when we get to substantial
00:24:45 --> 00:24:48 evidence review and the standard courts use to
00:24:48 --> 00:24:51 make decisions. But at this point, know that
00:24:51 --> 00:24:53 it matters. Okay. I think I've changed my mind
00:24:53 --> 00:24:55 about what the most troubling part of this is.
00:24:56 --> 00:24:59 Okay. What was troubling you? Well, at first,
00:24:59 --> 00:25:01 the fact that the agency compiles its own record,
00:25:01 --> 00:25:04 right? In ordinary litigation, I'd be very skeptical
00:25:04 --> 00:25:08 of letting one party select the evidence that
00:25:08 --> 00:25:11 everyone else gets to see and that the court
00:25:11 --> 00:25:14 uses to review the decision. Right. And this
00:25:14 --> 00:25:17 isn't ordinary litigation. Right. The agency
00:25:17 --> 00:25:20 has already made the decision and the court is
00:25:20 --> 00:25:22 reviewing that decision. So someone has to assemble
00:25:22 --> 00:25:25 the materials and the agency is in the best position
00:25:25 --> 00:25:28 to identify what was before its decision makers
00:25:28 --> 00:25:33 when it decided this particular rule. And requiring
00:25:33 --> 00:25:35 an agency to create a reviewable record can actually
00:25:35 --> 00:25:39 improve the decision-making process. It has to
00:25:39 --> 00:25:40 document the evidence. It has to address important
00:25:40 --> 00:25:43 objections and it has to explain what it decided.
00:25:43 --> 00:25:46 Those things do not feel problematic to me and
00:25:46 --> 00:25:49 actually seem to make a lot of sense. Right.
00:25:49 --> 00:25:51 And it gives challengers material they can use
00:25:51 --> 00:25:54 to show that an agency failed to consider something
00:25:54 --> 00:25:56 important or that it offered an inadequate explanation.
00:25:57 --> 00:25:59 A detailed record can help the government defend
00:25:59 --> 00:26:01 its decision, but it can also expose weaknesses
00:26:01 --> 00:26:04 in that decision. Okay. So my concern isn't really
00:26:04 --> 00:26:07 that the agency assembles the record. It's how
00:26:07 --> 00:26:09 effectively someone can challenge the record
00:26:09 --> 00:26:12 when there's a reason to believe it isn't complete.
00:26:12 --> 00:26:15 And the rules governing that challenge can determine
00:26:15 --> 00:26:18 what the court is able to examine. Because there
00:26:18 --> 00:26:20 are several different questions a reviewing court
00:26:20 --> 00:26:23 might face. Has the agency supplied all the material
00:26:23 --> 00:26:26 that belongs in the record? Can the court consider
00:26:26 --> 00:26:29 evidence that was never before the agency? Is
00:26:29 --> 00:26:31 some internal matter legitimately protected?
00:26:31 --> 00:26:34 And does the agency's actual explanation support
00:26:34 --> 00:26:37 the decision it made? Yeah, those questions are
00:26:37 --> 00:26:39 related, but you're right. They address different
00:26:39 --> 00:26:42 problems. Okay, and I think the distinction between
00:26:42 --> 00:26:46 completion and going beyond the record is especially
00:26:46 --> 00:26:49 important. In the census case, the plaintiffs
00:26:49 --> 00:26:51 had evidence that the government hadn't supplied
00:26:51 --> 00:26:54 the complete administrative record. Ross's supplemental
00:26:54 --> 00:26:58 memorandum gave them that evidence. So the additional
00:26:58 --> 00:27:00 documents revealed a problem that the original
00:27:00 --> 00:27:04 record hadn't shown. But that didn't mean the
00:27:04 --> 00:27:06 court had unrestricted authority to investigate
00:27:06 --> 00:27:09 everything about how that decision was made.
00:27:09 --> 00:27:12 Right. And the Supreme Court insisted that the
00:27:12 --> 00:27:13 district court respect the procedures governing
00:27:13 --> 00:27:16 review, even while recognizing the significance
00:27:16 --> 00:27:19 of the evidence that ultimately emerged. So the
00:27:19 --> 00:27:22 administrative record has two functions, then.
00:27:22 --> 00:27:24 It gives the court the material needed to review
00:27:24 --> 00:27:27 the agency's decision, but it also establishes
00:27:27 --> 00:27:31 the boundaries of that review. Yes. The law tries
00:27:31 --> 00:27:33 to make agency decisions reviewable without authorizing
00:27:33 --> 00:27:35 courts to take over the agency's decision-making
00:27:35 --> 00:27:39 responsibilities. Or to conduct unrestricted
00:27:39 --> 00:27:41 investigations every time someone files a lawsuit.
00:27:42 --> 00:27:45 But those boundaries can also make genuine problems
00:27:45 --> 00:27:48 harder to uncover. They can. And the challenge
00:27:48 --> 00:27:49 is making sure the courts have enough information
00:27:49 --> 00:27:52 to perform meaningful review while preserving
00:27:52 --> 00:27:54 the distinction between what agencies decide
00:27:54 --> 00:27:57 and what courts review. Okay, so now we know
00:27:57 --> 00:28:00 what the court is supposed to look at. What comes
00:28:00 --> 00:28:03 next? Before the court decides how closely to
00:28:03 --> 00:28:05 examine the agency's decision, it has to identify
00:28:05 --> 00:28:08 what kind of question it's answering. Meaning?
00:28:08 --> 00:28:11 Is this dispute about what a statute means? Is
00:28:11 --> 00:28:13 it about whether the agency got the facts right?
00:28:13 --> 00:28:16 Is it about how legal standards apply to particular
00:28:16 --> 00:28:19 facts? So questions of law, questions of fact,
00:28:19 --> 00:28:21 and mixed questions. Yes, and those categories
00:28:21 --> 00:28:23 matter because courts don't review them in the
00:28:23 --> 00:28:25 same way. And the classification can affect how
00:28:25 --> 00:28:28 much authority the agency has and how much independent
00:28:28 --> 00:28:31 judgment the court exercises. So the same administrative
00:28:31 --> 00:28:34 record might produce very different judicial
00:28:34 --> 00:28:37 review depending on which question the court
00:28:37 --> 00:28:39 is answering. Right. And that's where we'll start
00:28:39 --> 00:28:42 next week. So that does it for today's episode
00:28:42 --> 00:28:44 of Administrative Remedies. Thank you for joining
00:28:44 --> 00:28:47 us today. Please, if you enjoy this podcast,
00:28:47 --> 00:28:50 enjoy this episode, give us a like on Spotify,
00:28:50 --> 00:28:53 iTunes, or whatever platform you're listening
00:28:53 --> 00:28:56 on. And be sure to tune in next time where we'll
00:28:56 --> 00:28:58 continue to dive into the contours of administrative
00:28:58 --> 00:29:01 law, because remember, you can't fix what you
00:29:01 --> 00:29:01 don't understand.